Curse

ElevenBravo · Jun 10, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Maybe you should ask your monk for a heal?

4 v 4 doesnt count. 4 v 4 is the place you go to get used to your build before heading to GvG or HoH. If you didnt get a monk in your group, your screwed.

Blade Barrier · Jun 10, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Strap on Illusionary Weaponry, Illusion of Weakness, Imagined Burden, Conjure Phantasm, Flurry, and go slice him into neat little pieces.

If you're looking for a more defensive method, so you can focus your attention on a caster, strap on /monk. Let's face it, there's a reason so many players use monk as a secondary. The monk line is, dare I say it, a little overpowered for not just healing, but also for all the utility spells. This way you could bring mend condition, and whatever else you like. Granted, you will be wearing a nice big "kick me" sign, but as a mesmer, you should be used to it.

Jia Xu · Jun 10, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

you want to protect yourself against a ranger? be a total pain in the ass, take necro secondary, and get plague sending.

obviously, this works once per condition, so if he whacks you with poison again you will have to cast again, which is a pain. However, use your energy gaining skills to try and help counter this. It's great to watch a ranger throwing crap out while hiding near their spellcasters, then a necro turns round and suddenly all the guys near the ranger have bleeding and poison as well.

Plague sending is an underrated counter to conditions in my opinion (most people are put off by the combo of 10% sacrifice and 10 energy cast)
In response to these people, if you get attacked by some warrior using axes/swords who cripples you, why not cripple him back and run away free? its a very versatile skill. if you had the energy, you could let him cripple you repeatedly and get his whole team snared

. its an interesting skill, and rangers lose interest when they become the victim of their own abilities

Rey Lentless · Jun 10, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'd say spirit shackles too. Blinding is too easy to counter by rangers. Just take their energy away and they'll be pretty hampered. They'll still hurt, but much less and you should still have time to do your job.

I agree on the necro counters to conditions too, and think that's a better counter than the monk secondary for that. It's one thing to dispell the condition, but to stick it back on them.. that'll make them choose a new target much quicker. I run around looking for blind/poison/fire/disease conditions with my W/N. That's a hard counter and not really anything a ranger can do about it, except pick a new target.

What's your secondary anyway?

Deathlord · Jun 10, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Mesmers are the global counter. However if they didn't have atleast a common enemy then they'd be invincible. Archers isn't the mesmers common enemy, they're just a little harder to counter.

Basic damage-count skills - Empathy:Clumsiness:Spirit Shackles
Basic hex/manipulation skills - Imagined burden: Ethereal Burden: Crippling anguish

1. You can't always stop the opponent from attacking, so what do you do? Insted, destroy their want to attack.

2. If they try to pin you down, slow them down and use a temporary solution such as illusion of haste. Hopefully you'll be able to get far away enough so teamates can help you out.

3. If you find them using poison arrow or the poison preperation, counter them the best you can. Shutdowns such as power leak and diversion can help you out.

Red Locust · Jun 10, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Rangers are quite tricky for mesmers to get around. If you're playing arena, your best bet is to blind him using ineptitude or sig. of midnight and hope the monk doesn't have a condition removal (and how many monk bother to bring cond. removals in the arena?). Signet of midnight can actually be used in conjunction with epidemic to shut down all the warriors and rangers on the enemy team, very handy skill to have in the warrior-infested arenas.

Other than that, it's quite hard. Rangers use very little energy so drains are quite useless. They don't use spells, so there goes your entire domination line. Empathy won't do since they will be doing more damage to you than you to them. Sure you could bring 8 skills that are anti-ranger, but that would make you worthless vs casters, which is where you really shine. Best to rely on the monk.

beamerxl · Jun 10, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Spirit shackles is a good recommendation. I'm Me/N, so I also have the likes of Enfeeble, Faintheartedness, Plague Sending, etc.

Creed · Jun 10, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Mesmers have got limited healing ability. True.

Mesmers can easily shut down other classes. True.

Shutting some one down means you take no damage. A mesmer who has to seriously worry about healing is one which has targeted the wrong person. Warrior charging you? A seris of burden / weakness / conjure phantasm will certinally make him turn tail and run. Elementlist annoying you? Backfire, energy drain / tap. No energy no damage output. Necros health degeneration spells cause a problem, but as a caster they can be countered with much the same tactics as targeting eles. Ranger have health degen in the form of poison, and also hit at range, makes them formidable vs. lightly armoured targets with few attack spells such as the mesmer. Blind, will work wonders. Let the archer target you, he should'nt be able to hit you. Mantra of concentration will stop any interuptions and you should be shut him down much like any other class then.

Heal? Who needs it. Just make sure you target the right people, and shut them down.

DarkAynjil · Jun 10, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhatMhat

sig of midnight has its pros and cons.

hopefully i wouldnt die from the poison and/or bleeding.

i wouldnt be taking any more arrows.

i wouldnt be doing anything else.

what would happen when the 15 secs were up?

pacify is nice but it only works for 8 secs. it could work for up to 20 which would really be usefull...but then i'd have fewer points in my mes attributes.

same thing with swirling aura in the water line. 8-20 secs with a 60 sec recast.

what im looking for is something like distortion - but for arrows and something that purges conditions on MYSELF, not only on my allies.
ill keep looking.

Purge Signet
Purge Conditions

Jia Xu · Jun 10, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creed

Heal? Who needs it. Just make sure you target the right people, and shut them down.

there is always the issue of being attacked by more than one person at once. i think he is saying what counter is there for ranger conditions, as a lot of the normal counters dont work, as the ranger just wants to hit you once, and by then how do you know he's attacking you? surely until he starts attacking you are focusing on their spellcasters?

purge conditions is good, but has quite a hefty recharge time. the only way to stop the ranger being a pain in the ass to you is to make him stop wanting to shoot you - and empathy isnt going to cut it as i'd happily take 32 damage or whatever so that i can poison you for 20 secs, doing about 150 DOT...

The mesmer doesn't have any inherent solutions to being conditioned, so the best way to sort it out is to take a secondary who can a) make use of the condition/get rid of it easily with LOW energy cost, because a ranger can attack fairly often. another option would be to take /W and go smack him in the side of the head, but that would just be silly.

Zelnox · Jun 10, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I had a very bad losing streak in Random Arena (probably 20 to 30 consecutive losses), because I didn't bring any defensive skills. I wanted to test out some combos for the Tomb, but unfortunately, the environment is too different. Even in Tomb matches, I really depend on the healers/protectors. ;_;

are you hippies · Jun 11, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Other than that, it's quite hard. Rangers use very little energy so drains are quite useless.

i've been using a mesmer build based on mindwrack for the past few days, and i find that rangers are my easiest targets. here's what i use:

with runes + what not:
Domination: 12
Inspiration: 12
Fast Casting: 7
Wilderness Survival: 8

mind wrack
signet of weariness
energy tap
ether feast
energy burn
energy surge {E}
dryder's defense
ressurection signet

with these stats i can potentially drain over 40 energy in a short amount of time. this is enough to wipe the floor with any ranger, and potentially deal him 72 (energy burn) + 72 (energy surge) + 75 (mind wrack) = 219 damage right quickly. he's screwed then, as you keep applying mind wrack and sapping energy when possible, unless he's got hex breakers or manages to pull of a troll unguent (which usually just delays the inevitable). the thing is, the only hex you're laying on him costs 5 energy, and if he's wasting crap trying to get rid of mind wrack your energy burn/energy surge/hitting him with those magical bubbles from your staff will take him out eventually. with 8 wilderness, dryder's defense provides 8 seconds of cover, which seems to come in handy more often than not. however, i've almost always got at least 2 people targetting me, and if i can't take that ranger out in 8 seconds, the warrior who's been patiently slicing up the air around me will eventually eat me up pretty fast. i suppose i could take out something for pin down or another mesmer defensive ability, i should probably do that. if i can last long enough, ill kill the warrior too by turning his own lack-of-energy against him, it's just a little tougher since they have that adrenaline crap and can still dish out lots of damage without energy.

i've taken out 2 rangers by myself before, with this build. they were stupid rangers, but i still felt pretty cool. i also have to be somewhat patient with elementalists and other casters, since it takes a little longer to get their energy down. they won't be experiencing any mind wracks until they start draining their own energy with spells. unlike rangers, because i know that no matter what they cast i'll have their energy down to 0 in no time

Anteus · Jun 12, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

So the gist of what I've read so far, is that people are relying on their secondaries for defense (vis a vis rangers, and perhaps other to-hit type attackers?)

Are you Hippies, uses Dryder's defense (And I like his offense too!, but I'm not a ranger secondary).

Is it safe to say that we re asking about defenses versus physical attacks, abd conditions then? The consensus seems to be that we are perhaps the most teammate/secondary-class dependant class in the game so far. I mean, Distortion does't seem to help anything PvP or PvE, since (it seems to me) the duration is too short and you lose a ton of energy if it is even doing it's job. Perhaps the Devs are sending a message here by making such a backwards skill. Please input me here if you disagreee that our only self active skill versus to-hit attacks is a bit useless entirely.

A lot of posts suggest ducking and weaving (ie. runing around till they focus on someone else) especially in the absence of a coordinated team. I definitey do not disagree with this tactic. Besides it also forces us to be more aware of the battlefield situation--which is not a bad thing.

So outside of a good offense, I am getting that we are fairly defenseless to attacks per se, and have to attempt to mitigate the hexes and conditions that may come our way in the course of things...thus we are the squishiest of the classes.

With that in mind, outside of a few skills that--in combination--can mount a formiddable offense (like Are you hippies' mind wrack build, which requires 3 essential skills to operate), can we narrow down some skills that can act effectively as stand alone or at least in pairs to mitigate our woeful enheritance?

Clumsiness, Ineptitude and Crippling Anguish have been forwarded--and any of these should work well in combination with say, Imaginary Burden/Etherial Burden.

However, I'd also like to ask if anyone has used Sympathetic Images/Sympathetic Visage versus the warriors and found them worthwile? (I'm not yet that experienced myself, but these seem just like minor mitigators of straight damage more than deterrants).

Also it seems like alot of these are the illusion attribute, so perhaps Mantra of persistence could boost any of them.

Again, I think we might conclude that mesmer, in and of itself does not support defense versus attacks/conditions. That leaves hexes as our domain--does this seem narrow? If you are loner you'll have to rely on your wits and your secondary class for defense. If you have a good team, you may just get some help in these arenas. Personally I fear the conditions more than the attacks.

My own limited experience has shown me that the earth college of Elementalists, has some good defense from attacks, especially melee: Earth armor and a ward really can chap a warriors butt. But these re nothing versus conditions. For that there is monk, which I have no experience with.

Does this represent our plight then?

appleseed · Jun 12, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

The consensus seems to be that we are perhaps the most teammate/secondary-class dependant class in the game so far. I mean, Distortion does't seem to help anything PvP or PvE, since (it seems to me) the duration is too short and you lose a ton of energy if it is even doing it's job. Perhaps the Devs are sending a message here by making such a backwards skill. Please input me here if you disagreee that our only self active skill versus to-hit attacks is a bit useless entirely.

Disagree.

The energy cost is on there because there is another Mesmer skill that will gain you energy every time an opponent misses you. Net effect is that you lose very little energy overall, and if done properly will actually gain energy. If Spirit of Failure didn't exist, the skill would be more powerful.

Distortion can be kept up constantly, it's duration = recharge. This is fairly rare for a defensive skill on that level of avoidance. If used as it was meant to be used, it gains you energy so the energy cost isn't really a stopping factor.

Dryder's Defense is up for ~10 sec every 60, leaving you 50sec of no defense at all for that skill.

Darc.Syde · Jun 12, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Spirit Shackles work. then strafe dance.

Kishin · Jun 12, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darc.Syde

Spirit Shackles work. then strafe dance.

Couldn't have said it better. Spirit Shackles is the bane of a Ranger's existence.

Kuku Monk · Jun 13, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

In my limited experience, the ranger was pretty easy to kill. I'd hit him with Conjure Phantasm, Energy Burn, and then work some of my Elemental skills on him. I'm pretty sure no other player in my group was attacking him... He barely did any damage to me once he noticed that I was ravaging him. My biggest problem in PvP has been necros and warriors (especially warriors). Haven't found a solution for them. I'm hesitant on changing my skills around as I've got a really good set for PvE and I don't really enjoy PvP...

Gerbill · Jun 13, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Using spirit shackles would disable Ether feast though, so you will defenitly need a proper monk with you.

shawn23233 · Jun 13, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jia Xu

you want to protect yourself against a ranger? be a total pain in the ass, take necro secondary, and get plague sending.

Curiously enough I am nec second and have tried a variation of this _plauge signet_ but the truth is a well played ranger is gonna kill you as a mesmer, and all this "on paper" stuff aside there isnt much you can do about it LOL.

Its the rock-paper-sicors model and rangers get us. Same for us, if I get 1 on 1 with an elemental, hes a dead man, and there really isnt thing he can do about it. I owned him as soon as he chose elemental in toon creation LOL. Same for us and rangers, fun to debate and if they are not terribly skilled some things can be done, but all things being equal, they own us.